Palm Treo 680 vs. Apple iPhone Comparison

BTW - I hate this spam blocker... Anyways, I think we've all been so used to the status quo that when we don't have to accept it anymore, it looks silly. In the old world, the 700p (with LOTS of studying, application installation, hardware purchasing, configuring, troubleshooting, rebooting, and trial and error) was the phone to beat. Now... it's beat. Let me close with my favorite quote of 2006 from Palm's CEO. "We've learned and struggled for a few years here figuring out how to make a decent phone,'' he said. "PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They're not going to just walk in.'' Uhmmm Yeah. Apple just walked in and changed the game.

There's a lot of Treo apologists out here who refuse to acknowledge the Apple just set the bar. Is the iPhone a Treo killer? Not exactly, but I'm sure it's going to blow the Treo away in the consumer market. Unless Palm finally finds a way to get a phone out with comparable hardware (i.e. long-overdue WiFi, Bluetooth 2.0, bigger/better screen) and not to mention raw flair, they're goose is cooked.

I'm glad the iPhone is out. Maybe just maybe it'll cause Palm to quit messing around

I'm sooo happy that the iPhone truly exceeded my expectations. I trusted Apple would bring out a cool phone - even hoped it'd be a smart one. With this expectation, shortly before Christmas I upgraded my 3 month old Treo 650 to the Treo 680 so that I'd have a practical smartphone that'd I could really use till I could buy the iPhone.

I love the Treo 680 but after resetting it 3 times in the last 2 weeks just to try to get my contacts synced on the Treo and desktop Daylite CRM tool mentioned before I can finally see light at the end of the tunnel. Contact fields on both apps (even with the basic Mac Address book) do not match properly. I still cannot get Daylite and Palm contacts working probably and will most likely ask Bill (Hi Bill) for his insights.

The iPhone isn't a business phone? What is a business phone? The possibility of finally seamlessly accessing my desktop content on an 8GB smartphone that just works? I can just see all Mac app developers making sure that their desktop apps work on the iPhone. Excellent!

This morning I actually started asking myself how much of a 'smart'phone my Treo 680 is. Maybe this will be the true impact of the iPhone - getting other smartphone/non-smartphone users to THINK and ask why their phones can't do x y or z when it seems so easy.

Palm had a chance to really innovate but when their CEO dismissed the iPhone threats so easily, I actually started to worry about their future. They seemed to forget how many of their Palm users are also avid Mac users and how hard it would be for them to resist an Apple smartphone. Now that it's got OS X, if the apps are released fast and furious... tsk tsk tsk

Steve Jobs - I finally forgive you for cancelling the Apple Newton! Phew!

Bring on the iPhone - I'll be buying 2 for my office. Flaws and all!

Wow Andrew, we know you're biased, but by this degree? - my personal votes (as a die-hard 8 years+ Palm user and no Apple-User) would be:

Screen Resolution + Input Method (Palm 1: Apple 1) - Palm for the real keyboard, Apple for the great resolution

Operating System (Palm 0: Apple 1) - I love Palm OS but it's neither stable not really well integrated. We haven't seen mobile OS X but if it's only anyway close to Desktop OS X, it's a winner

Storage (Palm 1: Apple 1): External memory is fine but 8GB internal _fast_ memory is more than most will ever need.

GSM + Wireless Data + Camera (Palm 0: Apple 2): Agree with you

Battery (Palm 1: Apple 0): Even though I don't think external batteries are that big of a plus. Anybody except Andrew has ever used one?

Dimensions + Weight (Palm 0: Apple 1): For your ridiculous accreditred Palm point Apple ought to get 2 points!

That would be 3:6 ...

I am quite seasoned with TREOs and a user of some Apple products let me review your review

Screen Resolution + Input Method (Palm 1: Apple 0)
Screen resolution is better in TREOs
impute method no, i love my treo keyboard but it is easily broken/stuck damaged, and touch screen is giving problems quite often, anyway as everybody here is a treo user I give the point to Palm as once you get used to keyboard is hard to change.
Storage (Palm 0: Apple 0)
GSM + Wireless Data + Camera (Palm 0: Apple 2)
agree
Battery (Palm 1: Apple 0)
agree
Dimensions + Weight (Palm 0: Apple 1)
you cannot start by saying you feel the extra weight compensates, which is the point of judging things one versus one if you do that? As you are not considering Dimensions + Weight+ keyboard+ media but just dimensions clearly Apple wins this round

Oh yeah multiple storage Sd cards... as this is not included in the price of the treo I am afraid I think your reasoning is not so good, and how do you manage files in your SD cards? with Palm OS? no , usually you purchase another software to actually be able to manage your files so I think this is a draw

So it is 2 points palm 3 apple a close run but i wont be switching to an iPhone anytime soon at least untill six months form launch when most issues are well known.
my 2 cents

Heylooo!

Wow, what a LIVELAY discussion. Lovin' it!!!

I agree on everything.... i'd say more about that but i'm tired... it's 4 am. time for sleep...

but briefly:

Glad iPhone is FINALLY OUT!! Yayyyy! I've been dreaming about this device for over a decade!

But, to tell you the truth, ok, i haven't tried it yet, of course, BUT, i'm STILL attached to my PHYSICAL KEYBOARD.

i can use it with one hand while i'm driving.... i know that doesn't sound good buy i can use the keys WITHOUT even LOOKING at the keypad while its in my lap and i use the headset so i never have to put the phone to my head. Anyway, i have a hard time thinking that my thumbs will be able to type as fast and easily as on the virtual keypad as with the qwerty thang.

Also, CIGULAR???? uhhg.... i pay $99 for 5000 minute with tmobile. it works for me and only 4.99 for unlimited internet. i wish sometimes we had one phone company with that deal and GREAT service but that wouldn't be real, would it?! those 2 things, good deal and one service just don't go together...

I am MAC GEEK ALL DAH WAY, indubitably, BUT unless someone gave me the tang and gave me free service with Cingular, I ain't changing. Not now anyway. Additionally, I don't usually buy the first thing that apple comes out with.

the upgrades come so fast... i'd wait anyhooo... but i know i'll get one maybe by the end of the year. i just don't feel the urge to jump on the first bandwagon... i can wait... or... am i lying to myself???

i dont' have the problems with my treo that people talk about. i haven't upgraded yet past the 600 because i'm gsm and also need the palm version and have been waiting for something better than the 650. i bot and returned it. didn't like it. my 600 has served me and have had very little problems with my treo even my 270 was problem-free for me.

i waited to git the 680 to see MAC Expos revolutions & now i'll go 'head and git me the 680 for now. At least i'll have an update from what i have. its not like i have the 750....

Its a really GREAT DEBATE though! A great boon for us GEEKS gadget people who actually LOVE a really USEFUL device!

i tell you one thing, i can't IMAGINE life without A TOUCH-SCREEN & KEYBOARD on MY PHONE!

These ARE UTTERLY ESSENTIALS to me. People who use those regular phones... geeeminy xmas... i don't know HOW they DO IT??!

You couldn't PAY ME to use one of those motorola Razr things. hate em. had to once for a few weeks when i waited to get my new 600 when i returned my 650. just felt things i just can't explain: **%)#@!!*

And yes, THANK GOD(DESS) that TREO has competition now to begin to actually GET WITH THE CENTURY!

oh... so much for being tired...

And, Oh, 2, I'LL TAKE BOTH!!!

Alira

This is a bit like AA. I love the Treo and I want it to get better. Part of that process is openly accepting and embracing whats wrong with it and looking at examples of better ways of doing things.

I think the iPhone does just that on several levels which Andrew's initial comments don't touch on and which don't do enough justice to the work Apple has been doing and which, notably, Palm has NOT been doing.

I embrace the iPhone and ultimately the market will decide (business phone or not) which is the more popular phone.

On the business phone side it's worth noting that aside from the lack of 3rd party applications (who knows how long that will last), what are we really talking about here?

No Replaceable Battery
Most business guys I know travel with a notebook and are never more than 20 feet away from a power outlet. With USB cable and travel chargers, how much of an issue is that ? I have spare batteries for my treo because it takes them. If it didn't I'd have it plugged into a USB socket when I wasn't using it.

No Expansion
It comes with 8Gb and WIFI. Are you seriously telling me that from a general busines perspective you're going to use more than that - other than for movies (which isn't business and clearly the iphone beats the treo hand down is for nothing else than the screen format). I think Wifi will end up being amore important feature than localised expandability, especially when there is already so much local storage available. Lets not forget that a lot of Treo users still can't reliably access more than a 2GB sdcard anyway.

No 3rd Party Software
Its got a decent web browser. The future isn't in executables that sit on the phone. The future is in web applications. Think about that and the implications both for the software developers and where the data will sit. Seems to me with Safari the speedier, more responsive iPhone with a more natural format screen should be a well placed device to take advantage of them. Developer write for the browser and benefit from both the iPhone AND [future] Treos (Blazer isn't up to it yet).

You won't need much other than utilities on the phone. Most of my Treo utilities are there to make it like it should have been to begin with - picture dialing, voice command, multiple profiles, contacts management, today page....all of these should be better by now but instead they've remained largely absent or the same for the last 2 years.

OK those were leveled at the iphone for it's non-business like features - they're semi-fair points.

What about my Treo's and it's supposedly better task-switching OS?

My experience of that OS is that it's
- slower compared to other hand held devices
- inconsistent in UI mechanics within the apps that ship with the device
- obviously lack some key features most phones have had for years
- frequently locks on it's own
- occassionally reboots on or off a call
- not very innovative with the touch screen, go and play a Nintendo DS game to see what they could be doing.
- has trouble with bluetooth ("I don't care, I just want it work" I say often through the crackles and hiss whereas my wife happily uses her headset with her $100 samsung from 10 feet away).
- for whatever reason apps never return you to where they're launched from so, open a picture in an email, exit and you end up at the apps screen. come on, thats rediculous. And no, I don't want to hear, "becuase this and because that" I'm a consumer and I don't care.

So my question is where abouts is this long learning curve demonstrated on my Treo thats long remained very similar looking to it's predesessors? Unless the lessson learnt by Palm is 'If it ain't "totally" broke, don't fix it'. By long I think Andrew means it's taken a long time for the Treo to get to where it is - I'm not sure how much of an achievement that is regardless of what happened with Access.

So returning to my initial statement, despite what it may sound like I like my Treo (although I may buy my son an iPhone) and I want it to get better.

It's simply not going to get better unless we as consumers and commentators stop accepting the obvious faults of the Treo and start putting pressure on Palm to deliver real proper innovation (and catch-up features) instead of some limited skinning and a recompile of the 3 year old OS.

Of course it's been said they're working on something. Lets hope that instead of off-handedly dismissing the iPhone publically they're privately looking at it and building on the good things that device delivers to the end-consumer.

So finally I regard this, much more than other 'smart-phone' pretenders, as a significant threat to Palm and other smart-phone makers. If they treat it as such and act accordingly those of us buying Treos will have much better Treos in the long run.

I get the impression that nobody watched the keynote. Steve clearly points out the SD Slot, he uses the touch screen to typed, he looked for addresses and other data and found it very quickly. I imagine the finished product will be as good as he showed off. When I compare that to my wife's Treo, it makes her phone look like a rotary. And regarding the need for a removable battery, I already have a power jack in each car that will charge my iPhone, and the cables for the 4 iPods in my house will do the same, as well as the ones at all my family and friends houses. I bet it will pair with the already available Apple bluetooth keyboard with out much trouble. I love my address book, and that will sync just by dropping it into iTunes. Wow. You all forget that when the first iPod came out everybody said "there are already chaper mp3 players - who'd want to spend that much money for that thing". I own 5, and sure, one is dead, but it will be replaced with an iPhone. They've sold 90 million mp3 players by being innovative. I would not bet against them.

Just been watching the keynote address from Steve Jobs...as much as I love my new Treo 680...I gotta say this new phone looks mighty impressive!

I think giving the points to the Palm OS over the iphone is quite questionable to say the least! I've only watched half the demo so far...but I've already seen a number of GUI and usability features that look fantastic...the ease of Itunes versus Pocket Tunes...and the photo viewer to name 2 examples...Palm OS is certainly more supported at present with third party apps...but in terms of OS potential I think I'd be giving the points to the iPhone when compared with the aging Garnet...(Where one has to use Third party software like Palm Revolt to get some of that 'cool' modern look)

...and when you add in Wifi Support + a screen that can be so easily used landscape...

hmmm....I've been passionate about my Treo 680...but this certainly makes me wonder!

Well, well. Like John in #19, I've been with Palm since the Palm Pilots and had practically every iteration -- thanks in part to the power button reliably breaking and Best Buy's service plan. I now use both a Treo 650 and a Palm TX and will for a long, long time. Five months, to be exact.

A lot of good points have already been made (the iPhone is much thinner, Mac OS X/UI seems more robust, etc.), so I'll focus my comments on a different aspect. When the 650 was introduced, my first impression was disappointment: what, no wifi (not to mention the crippled BT)?! Fast forward to the 750 and...still no wifi! Is it because wifi is so difficult to implement? No, Palm says users don't really need wifi since they can have broadband-like speed through their phone carriers. But I always got the impression that Palm was bowing to pressure from the carriers, and also withholding a desired feature so it can have something to put in a later upgrade.

Now Apple comes out with the iPhone, and I can't help but feel that the company has pulled out all the stops and given the iPhone everything they've got. Here's a company that's not afraid of running out of new ideas! Also, I can't help but think that their exclusive partnership with Cingular (not my favorite carrier) until 2009 has something to do with implementing wifi.

The bottom line is that I think Palm has been taking its customer base for granted. Now I'm glad that many of my old apps broke when I upgraded to the TX and 650....

You must be kidding

Well lots of opinions here. I look at this from the perspective of a treo and ipod owner, and have been using both products for many years.

The one thing that bothers me is the battery. I have used my ipod and have had to have the battery replaced several times over the years. Apple in their manuals says the battery is good for about 500 recharges in their manuals for the ipod. Now...maybe they have something new in terms of power for their phone...but I doubt it by appearance. When you send an Ipod in for battery replacement...it's gone...you don't get it back for several weeks. Needless to say I do not use the ipod 7 days a week, 8+ hours a day like I do a phone. I think Apple has made tremendous strides for a first time phone...but until they come up with a replaceable battery....I will stay with what I have. One other thing here...Apple, when you send an ipod in for battery replacement does not always send you YOUR ipod back. Often times they are copying the harddrive contents to another ipod. I am probably anal about this but while I don't mind someone copying a disk drive full of music, I would have thoughts about copying a disk drive with potentially sensitive information on it. Am I reaching? Maybe...but certainly food for thought.

As for the comment about business people "never being more than a few feet from a power outlet", that might be true of some...but I will attest from personal experience (and LOTS of international travel) that I have been thankful for the ability to swap out a battery on my phone. I don't have to do it a lot...but when you have to...you can. I don't know about the apple phone, but the ipod definitely is a power hog. I can only imagine what battery consumption is going to be like playing with wi-fi etc. I am not saying the treo is any better...but again...I have the option of throwing a fresh battery in whenever I want.

Excellent write up! As the owner of a new unlocked Treo 680, I can tell you I regret not waiting 6 to 7 more months for the iPhone. I am a salesman and have 1800 contacts. My primary use is as a phone and a contact database. I am also a MAC user. I sync with Address Book and Calendar on my MAC using Missing Sync. I am betting ease of use is going to be a dream with the new iPhone. That's what Apple does...make it simple! As far as the interface goes...hmm we'll just have to wait until we can hold it and see for ourselves. I am betting I will want to switch.

It was a good run, but the Palm OS was on shaky ground as it was and the iphone just shattered that ground right under their feet. That said, to me there are a couple of things missing from the iphone that prevent it from achieving uber-godhood:
-3G speed... where's the HSDPA? Safari is gonna drag like a sonofabitch at EDGE speeds.
-Tactile feedback... Virtual keyboards are much harder to feel your way around. Why not use something like immersion's TOUCHSENSE technology so you can feel the keypresses even though they are on a virtual keyboard?
-itunes streaming... Why worry about jamming 8gb in the phone when you can just stream the music from your internet-connected PC at home running itunes over your data plan to your iphone? Even at EDGE speeds, streaming audio shouldn't be a problem. The new version of iTunes could handle all the details.
-Slingbox client... Once the HSDPA is rolled out in Europe at the end of 2007 (and hopefully in the US not long thereafter), a Slingbox client would work beautifully with that screen and provide a KILLER app for the iphone.

I'm sorry Palm allowed themselves to be passed like this. They took too long to fix issues they were told about over 2 years ago. That's business, and Steve Jobs is not one to let a carcass go unscavenged.

I have seen a lot of commentary about the Palm OS but how about some impressions from the Treo 700w and 750 users.

I am considering a 750, after having used a Windows "smartphone" for a while and not being too satisfied. I have Macs and PCs and like Mac OSX above all. My experience with Apple is very positive. I listened to the iPhone keynote and Jobs said at one point that many more features will be available down the road, such as 3G.

Looking for some input... Thanks

Well... I'm thinking that I should have waited. I have had my T680 since before Christmas. I like it and everything, but I bet I am going to upgrade in June. Probably August, since I'll be able to upgrade. I'll probably keep the Treo... Who knows, the Crimson will match some of my outfits... I'm curious and I love Mac. Just converted last year to a Macbook... I'm sold on Mac so the OS and the wifi... finally! we'll see...

At first I was annoyed that I just started getting a newsletter daily that I never signed up for, but I found it useful and interesting so gradually you won me over. This morning I was enraged to read such an obviously biased 'side by side' comparison which is first off impossible for you to compare features and even the things you can compare you favored Treo when the Apple specs are better.

"While the Treo 680 is some 15% heavier than the iPhone the fact is that I consider the additional weight of the full QWERTY keyboard, SD card slot and removable battery to be well worth it."

The fact that you consider the weight acceptable given the specs is something for your conclusion. It doesn't mean that Palm wins because you don't mind the extra weight and bulk. For a side by side comparison, the Apple wins and gets the points.

"While both the iPhone and Treo 680 share an almost identical Quad-Band radio with GSM/GPRS/EDGE support there is no doubt that Apple wins points here by adding WiFi, Bluetooth 2.0 and a 2.0 megapixel camera. However, the use of WiFi is likely going to quickly drain the iPhone’s non-removable battery which is a consideration to keep in mind. Also, a 3G iPhone is planned for Europe by the end of 2007."

Let's see... WiFi, BT 2.0 and 2.0MP camera. I count three things that are better than on the Treo, so why only two points?

"The PalmOS has now successfully powered many generations of Treo smartphones while the OS X variant which powers the iPhone has yet to prove its mettle – particularly when it comes to telephony where Palm has had the benefit of a long learning curve."

How does Palm win a competition you can't judge? The Palm OS sucks yet somehow you think it's still better than anything Apple can come up with?

"Because the iPhone uses a virtual ‘soft’ on-screen keyboard instead of the full QWERTY keyboard on the Treo, Apple has naturally used this additional space to increase the screen size. The resulting design is very similar to the one that I outlined in my post “A Future Virtual Thumboard Treo?” as well as “Future Treo Prototypes Roundup”."

How does Palm win resolution? Apple gets no points for a larger screen size? I admit that I like physical keys better than virtual keys, so I would even give you the point for the Treo's QWERTY, but you can't deny that the iPhone's screen size and resolution are worth a point or 2. When the product is released, we may even find that Apple has done onscreen keys so well that we will accept it over a QWERTY, but until then we can't compare.

"The main Phone interface appears to be significantly more complex and cumbersome to use when accessing your Contacts and dialling a number
The SMS functionality with a small screen and odd keyboard (pictured here below) is significantly less user friendly than the award-winning one on the Treo"

You can not compare either of these. I realize you assigned no points based on these conclusions, but it's irresponsible to try to make that call now. If you really think Apple would make dialing complicated then you have never picked up an Apple product and played with it. And SMS on a 'small screen'? Give me a break, the screen is larger than the Treo but this is still a negative? If you're counting the space the on screen keyboard uses, then you still have no basis to reach a negative conclusion now without testing the phone.

Based on specs alone, which is all you have right now, the Apple scores far better than what you suggested. I'm a Treo 700W user, but I'm even considering switching carriers if the Apple lives up to it's promise. However even I will be waiting to play with the phone before making any final judgements.

Nice review. Biased, but then they all are. But I'm still thinking about what you said Pedro (#2). No third party apps can be installed???? If that's true, I don't care if the iphone has 100 GB of memory and an espresso maker - the third party apps are my favorite thing about Palms.
Is this really true?

Trying to hang on to the Palm or Treo at this point is like hanging on to an irreconciliable relationship for the sake of the "kids" or for the sake of history (I've had a Palm or Treo for 8 years now). Fortunately for us, we can sell the "kids"!

I'm sorry to say this, but I think that Palm and the Treo will go the way of the dinosaurs....

All I can say is: good bye treo, hello iphone. Video killed the radio star and all that.

I doubt I will ever want at a Treo again. The iPhone has killed my Treo. It's days are numbered now.

I owned a Treo 650 and I now have a Treo 700p. My next phone will certainly be the iPhone. I watched the entire Steve Jobs keynote presentation and it's just crazy AWESOME!!! Your "analysis" made me want to cry, it was so biased and sad. I agree with many here, Palm dropped the ball big time and let Apple come right in and take over. Wallstreet agrees, Palm's stock price went down on the news of the new iPhone. I had some great years and fun with my Treo, now it's time to look to the future. It's coming this summer from Apple. I'll be looking for who ever comes up with "iPhonenauts.com."

I've been a long time Palm user as well...close to 10 years now. I have loved every Palm device I've owned. But I have to say that after watching the keynote, I am definitely some day going to own an iPhone. It's just that simple. My Treo 650...as much as I love it...simply does not compare.

That having been said, it's just a matter of when "someday" is. Yes, iPhone is innovative, but will it run all the same kinds of apps I use on a daily basis on my Treo?

Will it eventually be allowed to be used with different phone carriers?

When will it get a larger hard drive? The main reason for me to switch would be to integrate my phone with my iPod. For me, the way I use both, that would be phenomenal. BUT...8 Gig is just not enough for me. 20 or 30 seems more reasonable. If the iPhone ever gets to that point, I'm buying.

Not sure what everyone who complained about the battery is talking about. I've had my iPod for over a year now, and the battery has never gone out on me. I charge both my phone and iPod every night, and don't have a problem with either. I don't anticipate having a problem with the iPhone in that respect.

As for external expansion cards, yes, Steve Jobs did point out the slot on the iPhone where external expansion can be used. Handy, but again, I'm still waiting for the phone itself to have larger storage capacity, so this is a non-issue for me. If my phone has 20 or 30 gigs of space, I can't see myself using external expansion cards.

iPhone has a little way to go before I can feasibly see it as the replacement to my Treo, but knowing Apple, they'll get there soon, and then, sadly, I'm saying goodbye to Palm.

Check this review out.

My 5 Minutes Alone With Apple’s New iPhone.

http://www.mac360.com/index.php/mac360/comments/my_5_minutes_alone_with_apples_new_iphone/

I'm sorry, but I disagree with many of your views and ratings in this post. To me it seems very contradictory. You mention that the iPhone should be compared to the Treo680 because clearly it is a consumer device.

Then you go on to mention that it doesn't have a replaceable battery, it doesn't have a card slot for expansion. Somebody else in the comments mentioned it doesn't integrate with Exchange Server and another mentioned no ability to install other software (do we really know that for a fact?).

In all honesty, how many people in the mass consumer market care if their phone/address book/portable email does not sync with Exchange Server? How many want to buy spare batteries, or install extra software on their phones (or even their PalmOS devices to be honest - I know a lot of people with Palms and less than half have ever installed extra apps) ? How many want to buy big memory cards?

I personally think your arguments are all wrong. The iPhone and the Treo are different. I think the Treo if anything doesn't quite know where it belongs (and I have owned and loved a Treo650 for a couple of years), but the iPhone is quite clear - it appeals to the general person in the street who would store 50-100 contacts (not 1500 like business users), and who doesn't need highly developed PDA-like features, etc, but loves the cool factor of big screen, iPod inside, easy email on the run, better camera, etc.

I personally am not likely to go for the iPhone. I have a new Dopod 838 Pro which I absolutely love, and definitely need the hardware keyboard, powerful PDA features, Exchange sync, etc. But I'd be stupid to say the Dopod would appeal to the mass audience the same way the iPhone will. It wouldn't even get close!

As a consumer orientated device, I think the iPhone is likely to blow the Treo out of the water. Put the two side by side in the gadget isle of a superstore or in a phone store, and I think I know which one is going to get fondled and sought after more. But people like myself who need more PDA/business function will still go for other devices intended more for this purpose.

Any news on whether or not the iPhone will be compatible w/ corporate email clients like GoodLink? I am a happy 650/680 owner...but if I can get corp. email on this thing and apple can get the virtual keyboard right...it's going to be hard to stay away from the iPhone...